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Thread: CA Strategy. Selfish or Atruism?

  1. #11
    Member scix55 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecsplos1v View Post
    [*] Tipping point concept, after some initial hard work and a score advantage the belief that you are a strong player will lead to others avoiding you or playing badly against you or both, this will soon become self fulfilling[/LIST]
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    Not sure that is always true. I find myself chasing the good players a lot. I'll die a lot more but it's more satisfying when I get a frag or two on them. Not sure that is true amongst all people, however.

  2. #12
    *TheMagicianKing
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecsplos1v View Post
    I watched k1llsen play CA on this youtube video -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSEa382lqK8

    Thought I would write down my "interpretation" of his strategy. Yes it looks selfish doesn't it. I actually think that the altruism people chat about in the game is a bit of an illusion and you are really using your friends as cannon fodder. Is this a one-off or is there a selfish common attribute bias on all the top CA players?
    It doesn't look selfish at all actually, if you watch carefully, he often comes to his team's aid and it's because of that that most of his teammates are still alive at the end of the round.
    Yes it depends. 2v2 Thunderstruck isn't nuanced at all. Like in chess you are just trading off 50/50 and it's all very fair. What about 5v5 Campgrounds?
    Thunderstruck, Canned Heat and other smaller maps are more about head on fights. You are trading off, but that doesn't mean there are no strategies applied there.


    There is an interesting continuum between self interest and altruism in CA.


    Minimize awareness of your position (invisibility) especially at beginning of round. Keep moving, camp in strongholds to avoid getting stuck in a bad situation
    You can see him seeking out 1v1 confrontation in the last two rounds, so this is false.
    Always favor advantageous asymmetric situations, i.e. kill enemy while they focus on your mates (cannon fodder concept)
    You only see part of the trick used. This is the most commonly trick applied in DotA, a player can only target one opponent at a time(unless they are idiots and cluster). So instead of tanking all the damage, the player under fire moves away to avoid taking damage and forcing a target switch. A target switch is exceptionally costly to any player in the game, it costs him time and damage output; yet if he cannot escape and his target is gone, he is forced to. It's this loss of damage output that is being abused not only by k1llsen in that game, but by his teammates as well.
    Almost always avoid potentially disadvantageous situations (all meeting on bridge) especially if there is the perception by others that you are weak because it will become a self fulfilling prophecy and tip in that direction (the opposite is true if you appear indestructible). I have noticed that many players ask to meet for purely selfish reasons, they actually are asking you to die for them.
    I know from personal experience that when players ask to meet up, they are not asking for a meatshield. A meatshield only gets in the way and doesn't contribute to the fight. When I, or anyone I've seen calling for it, call for a bridge or ya meetup, they do so to get the dps they need to deal with whoever is on the bridge. They also try to avoid their team becoming rambos and dying alone. If you watch carefully, you can see K1llsen being near his teammates a LOT. If he is pushed away, he circles around and fires at the opponents from behind, forcing a target switch.
    Avoid symmetric (1v1 trade-off situations) until later or when you know you can win. Trading off fairly is lazy and void of tactics on the more complicated maps
    Again, last two rounds shows he doesn't mind. As long as it stays 1v1.
    Rabbit in the headlights concept -- Enemy are more trackable for ~2-3 seconds coming through a door/corridor/pad/rj when they were unaware of your position, set these up. I have realised that his insane LG accuracy is often the element of surprise of forcing predictable movement i.e. when they are on rail platform on DM6 and you fly in. Being able to move fast around the map is a great way to minimize awareness of your position.
    He's not explicitly doing that. It's just one of the things you can do to be effective.
    Always go in hard with LG with a potential fast switch to rail, don’t get caught on the 1800ms reload switch time
    Don't use rail when dealing or trading damage, period. The dps on the railgun is extremely low (80dmg/1.5 seconds), which still makes it good as a sniper rifle(which is one of the way he uses it sometimes), but not as a midrange fighting gun.
    Minimize uncertainty at mid/long range -- focus on instant dmg weapons like LG and RG. Rockets are more predictive, spammy and suppressive and critically take seconds to reach the target. At close range rockets are less uncertain and often advantageous although you have the dilemma of whether to run away or die doing maximum damage
    That is not concluded from this video. LG is your highest dps midrange gun, well aimed rockets will still surpass it. RG is out of the question for earlier stated reasons. Let me reiterate, 25% LG beats 100% RG in trade off, do not use RG if you have an alternative.
    Tipping point concept, after some initial hard work and a score advantage the belief that you are a strong player will lead to others avoiding you or playing badly against you or both, this will soon become self fulfilling
    Usually when I become a jerk to the opposing team they focus me instead.
    Last edited by Sasparillo; 08-07-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  3. #13
    Member ecsplos1v is on a distinguished road
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    Hi TheMagicianKing -- never had a chance to get back to you. You raised some fantastic points in your reply thanks for writing!

    Good observation on the effective dps being highest on LG

    Perhaps selfish is the wrong word but I have observed that the the starting position in a CA game relative to everyone else can strongly determine your outcome (more than fight skill in some cases). Also how you respond to being ganged, do you back off? When is it acceptable to back off, when you are about to die? Then is it acceptable to play a campy game because that's better than being dead? There is definitely a continuum and if you play fairly across that continuum with the teams interest in mind as much as your own then that's a good CA game. As long as everyone takes their fair share of damage to allow the team to get the most advantage.

  4. #14
    Senior Member SergeantRock44 is an unknown quantity at this point SergeantRock44's Avatar
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    I can agree that some players will back away from what is perceived to be a good player if they feel they aren't up to matching with that player, but mostly I also agree with Lorfa and others here that is player X on opposing team is killing your team, then it's in your team's best interest to kill him and remove him from the equation. Also, if that player is consistently killing your team, then most likely he's doing it with the rail, as in from a distance as a sniper, and therefore getting close to him and forcing him to switch to another weapon may take away his advantage and he's then easier to kill...

    IMO, the best CA teams are a balanced mix of damage dealers and campers: the dmg dealers are the sledge hammers and spammers, while the campers are the "closers" of the team. It would be best if the entire team is both adept at dealing damage and then switching to rail to finish the job. I've seen teams in pub CA where too many on a team want to be the campers: there's too little left of the team that actually deals damage, and they are often too quickly swallowed up by opposing teams while too many of their teammates are either hiding (camping), or are pew-pewing from on high or from a distance with their rails and they're not accurate enough, so they do minimal damage while their poor teammates are wiped out. Then those remaining "campers" are then closed in on by the remaining enemy and killed off too easily. This happens enough times in a match, and that team with those campers inevitably loses...

  5. #15
    Senior Member GanglandOneUp will become famous soon enough GanglandOneUp's Avatar
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    Reading this string hurt in more ways then one.

    My eyes are bleeding.
    I am late for lunch.
    My brain is on overload from all the psychological back and forth.

    ecsplos1v is very very tuned in on the nuances of the game. Please continue! Cheers!

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