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Thread: The next generation of competitive FPS games & the future of powerups

  1. #131
    Senior Member pikaluva13 will become famous soon enough pikaluva13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalBurst View Post
    I think you guys needs glasses.
    I already wear glasses. Feel free to check my Facebook for proof if needed
    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalBurst View Post
    I did NOT compare the two games. I only stated that Chess is a great game and has a simple layer of gameplay and that I'm more interested in games with more layers of gameplays. To move is a layer. To jump is another. To aim at someone is another. To aim at the head of someone is another. And those layers requires you to execute a movement with perfection. It's not just press a button and you just get a final result.

    In other words, I have no clue how you came up to the conclusion that I thought Chess was comparable to Quake or that it was a bad game. So read properly and please grow up...
    I'm not entirely sure why megaman3's bringing up that you said it was bad. (Seeing as the actual post he's quoting disproves you saying chess was bad) He might just need to clarify what he means a bit better.

    Not that it entirely matters who specifically brought Chess into the conversation, but unless I'm missing an earlier post Lorfa brought it up in reference to armor/health on the map and how it gives an advantage to the player to get it. From that portion of the conversation, it appeared that you were complaining about how it's unfair when players get powerups/pickups/whatever term you want to use and then the game becomes unbalanced.

    This is exactly the purpose of them in the game, and they are there to assist the player when they get them. They're intended to imbalance the game and give a single player an advantage; that's the entire reasoning behind them often being in the middle. They're meant to be contested and fought over for the advantage they provide. It provides a common meeting area that is supposed to regulate the gameplay so it doesn't end up just camping the entire time.

    Your argument in relation to chess was essentially that Chess is a simple game to learn at the basic level, but at high levels, can be extremely skillful. You could've ended that post saying that QL was the same way, but instead you threw in another thought about how headshots would add more depth to the game (Which is debatable -- I'll include a portion at the end of this post on the reasoning behind this) and that you found that just walking over powerups gave that specific player a huge advantage.

    However, as I just stated, the powerups are meant to give an advantage to the player that gets them; that's why they're fought over. This generally gives the assumption to any reader that you're of a lower skill due to the fact that any higher-skilled player would understand that the powerups are supposed to be fought over and generally will become the primary objective when they're about to spawn. (In CTF this is demonstrated by the Offense players staying in mid instead of pushing the base in order to actually get the Quad/Regen)

    You then ended your post by saying that you should leave Quake the same, but make a "spiritual successor". So in other words you've contradicted yourself by basically saying "I want a new game but I'm offering suggestions on how to 'improve' QL". This would not be a spiritual successor. This would be a modified version of Quake Live that would not be the same. It's similar to how PQL is supposed to be the QL equivalent of CPMA in Q3. They're not the same, but they're similar. However, most people will probably tell you that CPMA is the better of the two. (I personally disagree, but that's probably because I started with QL and not Q3)

    In Lorfa's next post, he brings up a point about where you said that walking over an item makes the game casual. Lorfa's point about Clan Arena was basically that since it is without weapons or anything on the map, it essentially diverges the gameplay completely into casual territory. Without any objectives other than "kill your opponents", there's nothing that forces the players to work together. Powerups are the answer to this as previously stated.

    In your next post, you basically said "I don't want headshots" which I don't fully understand because the incorrect grammar made it confusing. You then tell Limbless_Pony that there needs to be more skill involved in using the powerups outside of picking them up. Do you want players to enter a code to activate them or something? This would slow gameplay down immensely. (Yes, I know that's probably not what you meant, but it's not entirely clear since there was nothing specific about it from you. You were vague about the entire thing.)

    You then talk about "core gameplay". In this post you are confusing gameplay with mechanics. The gameplay in QL (For Clan Arena) is to kill without being killed. The mechanics in QL are "strafing", "shooting", and "jumping".

    We then got to the 'clarification' portion of the thread, which is still going on. We also made fun of Clan Arena's simpleness and talked about Warsow for a short period of time.

    Then came the hitmarker conversation. As it appears, you said that hitmarkers take skill out of the game. I then clarified that if you didn't know if you hit your opponent, you wouldn't know their approximate health and therefore wouldn't use an optimal weapon in the correct situation; you'd use the one you're best with all the time, which then makes the game simpler. Then we had a conversation about your skill level, and now I'm going to go into the detail about my opinion of headshots in QL as said I would.

    In Quake Live, the gameplay is fast. It's so fast that most of the time you can't even determine the exact location of a player's head while they're strafing around the map. Adding headshots into the game gives what would essentially turn into "aim higher and hope for the best". While this could be extremely beneficial for players who somehow got good enough to get that precise with their shooting, it'd add a completely random element to the game.

    Tribes Ascend is a game that has headshots enabled (and it's also fast), yet headshots are so rare to get simply because of how impossible they actually are to get. However, the game does not have additional damage for actually getting a headshot simply because it often is random, and probably because it doesn't want to encourage people to waste attempting to get headshots and miss a lot. It slows the game down when it's purposeful. However, in Call of Duty games, headshots are enabled and because the speed of the movement is slower, it makes perfect sense to have it since it's more obtainable (The damage is 1.4x normal with a headshot in CoD in most games).

    EDIT: Screw you all for posting while I wrote this all up :P
    The only reason I linked to the Wikipedia page was because it gives an exact definition of all 3 categories and they're all short, together, and to the point.

    If you're going to suggest something, you need to be clear with what you mean. Even though IonicAftershock may have guessed what TacticalBurst was thinking, that doesn't mean that everyone else reading the post will get that from it. You have to be as clear as possible so more people understand it. I'm also noticing that TacticalBurst is taking things off-topic now and just appears to be slamming the gaming community as a whole. (Again, I'm assuming because he has nothing to back up anything he's been saying in an exact manner)
    Last edited by pikaluva13; 04-02-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Limbless_Pony will become famous soon enough Limbless_Pony will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalBurst View Post
    As I said, it's typical from gaming communities. It's also funnier to judge and compare the size of their toy.
    Yes, we are awful. Please stay a while, I know you want to.

    Now back to my original question (which was actually serious, btw): you essentially want to take Quake and make it more complicated, because adding another layer/skill element/whatever, be it powerups usage or anything you like, well, it will do exactly that - make Quake more complicated. Right? Now, what do you want to achieve by doing that? No I'm not reading all 13 pages again, you should be able to state your goals clearly, like
    the new game will be better because:
    - A
    - B
    - C
    Oh, and if you choose to call it "better", do tell what "better" actually means. Sales? Playerbase size? Pure awesomeness with no consideration for the marketing part?

  3. #133
    Senior Member IonicAftershock is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikaluva13 View Post
    Not that it entirely matters who specifically brought Chess into the conversation, but unless I'm missing an earlier post Lorfa brought it up in reference to armor/health on the map and how it gives an advantage to the player to get it. From that portion of the conversation, it appeared that you were complaining about how it's unfair when players get powerups/pickups/whatever term you want to use and then the game becomes unbalanced.
    I am glad it seems a few people agree that powerups are an advantage at least. Not everyone seems to agree, BUT that could be because they assume everyone already knows that (at the same time, very few people acknowledge that because they are too busy arguing hehe).

    Quote Originally Posted by pikaluva13 View Post
    You then ended your post by saying that you should leave Quake the same, but make a "spiritual successor". So in other words you've contradicted yourself by basically saying "I want a new game but I'm offering suggestions on how to 'improve' QL".
    I could be wrong, but how I took it was that he wants to keep the best elements of Quake Live, but really change it up for the "better" (hence, it would not be a direct sequel, but have the spirit of Quake Live with it so-to-speak). Again, that's how I understood it is all I am sayin'!

    Quote Originally Posted by pikaluva13 View Post
    The only reason I linked to the Wikipedia page was because it gives an exact definition of all 3 categories and they're all short, together, and to the point.
    No worries. Just in my opinion, that is taking the blue pill so-to-speak (even if you don't believe the link you posted yourself, just saying what I think of it).

    Oh! Thank you pikaluva13...I think I might modify what I think about 'casual' and 'hardcore'. I just thought of this, and it is weird to be thinking out-loud on a forum (haha) but I might actually put 'casual' and 'hardcore' into the sub-genre of gaming (which is within my umbrella/blanketing term 'interactive experience/entertainment'). Again, I just thought of this, and I might tweak it, but it was interesting enough to me to post and I wanted to thank you for that.

    Sincerely, IonicAftershock
    Last edited by IonicAftershock; 04-02-2013 at 02:10 PM.

  4. #134
    Member TacticalBurst is on a distinguished road
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    Edited: Sounds like I'm just wasting my time.

    See you online.
    Last edited by TacticalBurst; 04-02-2013 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #135
    Senior Member Limbless_Pony will become famous soon enough Limbless_Pony will become famous soon enough
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    Okay, since you choose to quotate my post and then deliberately ignore the questions I ask anyway, I might as well deem you a troll and be done with it.
    Have fun.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalBurst View Post
    [*]Weapons that bring more varied gameplays (wall bounce, detonation after 2-3 sec., etc.)
    Fine by me.

    [*]Additional player movements
    Not wild about this one. PQL already kind of does this, and it seems I don't know.. superfluous. A consistent and not overly varied movement system is important imo.

    [*]Additional types of attacks
    Ok, but mostly this would go along with new weapons eh?

    [*]Greater synergy between players
    I'd be willing to try it.

    [*]Greater focus on close to medium range battles and possibility of headshots with certain types of weapons
    This isn't necessary, close to medium range battles happen plenty and headshots do little to change the game in QL.

    [*]More tricks
    Ok.. as long as it's done with care. You don't want to break the map with them.

    [*]Powerups can be picked up, but then must be used with skills
    No one knows what you're talking about here, and after many posts we still don't. Powerups do require skills to use.

    [*]Accessibility (something to do with menus, party system, etc.)
    Party system? What? "Something to do with menus"?? Please clarify.

    [*]Heavy focus on user-generated content
    This is quite an understandable suggestion, and the lack of this has upset many QL users. The issue is that the way QL is setup, Id has to own or have the majority of rights to every piece of content on their site. This is why 3rd party is very difficult or just not done.

    Perhaps with another "setup" user-generated content can be implemented again in full swing the way it was with previous quake games.

    [*]Hopefully cross-platform for a bigger pool of players
    Ok, this one is controversial. Console players usually play with controls, limiting how strong they can play the game. The PC players would have advantages, so the communities would have to be separate. It's kind of a mess, but I can definitely see the reasoning behind it as it would be nice to increase the game's audience tremendously the way a multi-platform title would.

    [*]No hitmarker or hitsound either, but there is a sound at the impact of a projectile when it lands on an opponent.
    Sentence has a contradiction in it.

  7. #137
    Senior Member GoBotz is on a distinguished road GoBotz's Avatar
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    The things to add or improve...

    Powerups can be picked up, but then must be used with skills

    What is the power up? What are its functions? how is it used. What are these skills you keep talking about?
    Are you thinking in terms of rage... having all the parts for a remote control car scattered around the map..collect them.. build it then have actually drive the car around during a match then blow it up.

    If you can't give a concise answer to peoples questions... then there's something wrong with you ... lol

  8. #138
    Senior Member IonicAftershock is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorfa View Post
    No one knows what you're talking about here, and after many posts we still don't. Powerups do require skills to use.
    *Waves and jumps around to no avail*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorfa View Post
    Party system? What? "Something to do with menus"?? Please clarify.
    I understood it as like a sort of Xbox Live chat system (not separate but integrated more) as well as easier to hop in and play matchmaking and more streamlined menus in the browser from the word accessibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorfa View Post
    Sentence has a contradiction in it.
    Ohhh...why is everyone SO precise...heh...focusing on the wording more th...just nevermind. He probably means no overall hitmarker or hitsound, just specifically and only when you hit an enemy directly. I would assume this includes grenades as well...though I wonder...is splash damage still allowed...you just don't get any hitmarker/hitsounds from it?

    Sincerely, IonicAftershock

  9. #139
    Senior Member Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa has a spectacular aura about Lorfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IonicAftershock View Post
    *Waves and jumps around to no avail*
    I'd try something else then.

    He probably means no overall hitmarker or hitsound, just specifically and only when you hit an enemy directly. I would assume this includes grenades as well...though I wonder...is splash damage still allowed...you just don't get any hitmarker/hitsounds from it?
    See, you aren't sure what he means either.

    ..and there is a very clear contradiction here, no pedantry needed:

    [*]No hitmarker or hitsound either, but there is a sound at the impact of a projectile when it lands on an opponent.
    Besides even in Q1 you had an enemy pain sound that you could hear.

    There was some controversy over the implementation of hitbeep 2/3 since it can tell you how much damage a weapon did, even if the player is not in view. In practice in seems not to have changed much. The objection was perfectly understandable though.

    To have no hitbeeps or sound feedback of any kind from damage is just going to annoy players though. They must have some idea when they're hitting so that they can adapt their aim and improve upon it. Maybe he's suggesting that this should be entirely visual. I really have no idea.

  10. #140
    Senior Member pikaluva13 will become famous soon enough pikaluva13's Avatar
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    While it's confusing, he means that there's no damage beep when you hit an opponent. Instead, there's just the physical sound from the impact of the rocket that is there anyway when it hits a wall.

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