Tiny CTF: Flame Breath, (alpha1) flamebreath_alpha1

[baaked]

A very claustrophobic CTF map, with spots for mid, and base defense.

Still early in the design of mid. I can't quite get GTKRadiant to play nice with texture alignment/scaling, so that's all very estimated. Base entry is very difficult, there are two, nearly identical entries.

It's also pretty easy to achieve a 7-8s fast cap.

Feedback wise, interested in flow, and things which will make the concept more viable.


base d's view of map

mid's view of map

offense view of map

top-down view of map

And now, for just a scant 366KB, you can tell me how I can improve the complexity and playability of this map! For great justice! Download now!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/59353/flamebreath_alpha1.pk3

[pikaluva13]

1) These textures are painful; you might want to wait to include textures until the map is actually near completion (Textures are also not aligned correctly, but I think you just stuck them in as a placeholder for the moment)

2) You can walk out of the map while going for the railgun.

3) This railgun/rockets wall gives a player the feeling of being outside of the map (Other than literally walking off the map as I stated in #2). I'd say to either make it like a balcony with a window to mid (Similar to 2Fort)

4) 3 powerups on this small of a map are way too much. I'd probably suggest removing the side powerups and instead make those green armors or something

5) The "windows" into the base are too small and are way to easy to defend. Any defender should be able to keep anyone out as long as they have the shotgun (Which is given to them)

6) You'll want to turn this into an arena-like map. Currently it doesn't have any aspects to it that other Quake Live maps have, and therefore wouldn't get played simply because it's different

7) Mega is essentially useless as well as the side hallwalls. These are too defendable because of the plasma gun

8) You can get stuck on the tight portion of the hallway at the Quads

9) Hole above Regeneration

[MexicanPadre]

First of all, there is essentially no caulk brush in this map, and it's important because later on in your map you are going to run into performance problems.

Second of all, brushes aren't placed correctly, so it is possible to see little cracks in the floor that lead to the void, and you don't want that. Also, if you are going to overlap brushes, you should CSG subtract so that you get rid of any unneeded brushes, such as the platform near YA.
Speaking of that platform, any movement in any direction will cause you to miss the platform, and the regeneration requires strafing to get to, otherwise you just land in that middle platform in the middle (which, imo, is useless anyway)

Third of all, lol another CTF map.

[baaked]

1) These textures are painful; you might want to wait to include textures until the map is actually near completion (Textures are also not aligned correctly, but I think you just stuck them in as a placeholder for the moment)
2) You can walk out of the map while going for the railgun.
3) This railgun/rockets wall gives a player the feeling of being outside of the map (Other than literally walking off the map as I stated in #2). I'd say to either make it like a balcony with a window to mid (Similar to 2Fort)
8) You can get stuck on the tight portion of the hallway at the Quads
9) Hole above Regeneration

Not intended behavior, to be fixed.

Somewhat intended, to create the effect of natural light entering, and light up the regen platform, since the light feature in the middle doesn't get it, and adding lighting is still awkward to me.

4) 3 powerups on this small of a map are way too much. I'd probably suggest removing the side powerups and instead make those green armors or something
5) The "windows" into the base are too small and are way to easy to defend. Any defender should be able to keep anyone out as long as they have the shotgun (Which is given to them)
6) You'll want to turn this into an arena-like map. Currently it doesn't have any aspects to it that other Quake Live maps have, and therefore wouldn't get played simply because it's different

See, the 3 powerups are to balance the extent to which base-entry is a choke point.

I'm increasing their size, but I was hoping that with quad, and all the health available to attackers, they would be able to find a way in, by force, or by skilled movement.

I was really hoping to cobble together a CTF map with some play that works like Vertical Vengeance. The flow works I think (moving around map), but I haven't tested combat.

7) Mega is essentially useless as well as the side hallwalls. These are too defendable because of the plasma gun

I don't understand mega being useless. Indeed they are easily defendable, but there is a great reward for success. Perhaps increase the size to more than one-person tall? I really want these chokes with the quads.

First of all, there is essentially no caulk brush in this map, and it's important because later on in your map you are going to run into performance problems.

I know nothing about this! I'll continue learning the editor.

Second of all, brushes aren't placed correctly, so it is possible to see little cracks in the floor that lead to the void, and you don't want that. Also, if you are going to overlap brushes, you should CSG subtract so that you get rid of any unneeded brushes, such as the platform near YA.

Still hunt and peck with this. Getting the geometry I wanted took a backseat to efficiency.

Speaking of that platform, any movement in any direction will cause you to miss the platform, and the regeneration requires strafing to get to, otherwise you just land in that middle platform in the middle (which, imo, is useless anyway)

On this, still hoping to further develop mid, so that the segment can play like Vertical Vengeance, with value for both mid players and offense to control.

Third of all, lol another CTF map.

ctf: not pubbed quite enough



Thanks, keep 'em coming.

[pikaluva13]

With the mega, I meant that because of how cramped the map is, you'll have people attacking constantly and won't really have time to get to it quickly enough to continue defending your flag.

[cityy]

Okay, here is my point of view. I think the map is not going to work like it is now. If you look at other QL ctf maps they commonly consist of 1. a flag room 2. a prebase/perimeter area and 3. a center area. Having paths to circumvent the mid as you have is a good thing in general but even those are a bit flawed.
You probably want the map to be fun and fast paced and you think you can accomplish that by having a simple and short layout; however, I think this is not what you are going to achieve. There are a few things that will make the map pretty annoying to play:
- long line of sights favoring RG play and most likely turning the map into a base to base RG fight (simular to what ctf4 used to be)
- jumppads as the only connection to the flag room make it impossible to attack; even with a shotgun you can deal hilarious amounts of damage to someone taking a jumppad which will make defending more than easy
- the accel pads in mid, first of all having 2 in a row is usually not a good approach because it kills all your momentum and flow and then it makes LG incredibly hard to approach (this is also due to the RG dominance)
- the PUs are too much, the map is simply too small to hold 3 PUs
- the map is symmetric, which is not a bad thing generally, but it lacks a decent high route; most ctf maps nowadays rely on at least one efficient low and one efficient high route (try to balance it, dont make one route more favorable than another - also think of team mates calling out flag runner routes, i.e. "flag exiting high", you want to make communication like that possible on your map

More things to watch out for:
- you dont want to give either attackers or def an advantage, attackers should be able to collect some low amount of armor in order to do a good attack and the flag def should also have some hp and armor to work with in order to actually defend, however you don't want your def to be too stacked because that will make attacking impossible
- how attackable or defendable a map is also depends a lot on geometry and weapon placement (i.e. your flag def has a height advantage and can easily catch people off the jumppads, also he has most weapons in close range making it very easy to defend)

What I suggest:
Rethink your concept, have a clear idea about what kind of map you want to accomplish. Smaller isn't always better or faster in ctf but larger isn't either, it is about having the right balance between geometry, weapons, armors and routes. Extend your current map; add a perimeter area, connect your side hallways to the mid somehow, break those lines of sight, rework the base with the jumppads and the map will become a lot more playable. Hope it helps, keep going!

[baaked]

- long line of sights favoring RG play and most likely turning the map into a base to base RG fight (simular to what ctf4 used to be)

I feel like midding is something that will naturally happen here. There will need to be more reward for it, more value in controlling mid, but the RG vantage points are something which will only come from control of mid.

- jumppads as the only connection to the flag room make it impossible to attack; even with a shotgun you can deal hilarious amounts of damage to someone taking a jumppad which will make defending more than easy

indeed they are very easy to defend, but with the frequency of attack, and skirmishes for quad damage, defenders may not always be in a position of advantage here. waiting on sg/pg is not a viable position, and dropping from rg/rl is dangerous for the defender.

- the accel pads in mid, first of all having 2 in a row is usually not a good approach because it kills all your momentum and flow and then it makes LG incredibly hard to approach (this is also due to the RG dominance)

These need tweaking, but keeping a vertically-oriented mid compact and hard to rail a defender unceasingly isn't a trivial task. Strafe-pads are certainly out of the questions and stairs will clutter it up. Perhaps a teleporter somewhere.

- the PUs are too much, the map is simply too small to hold 3 PUs

This is hard to say.

It is essentially a map that will place unreasonable pressure on a base-d who isn't flexible. The point of this map is to ensure that flag standoffs are nearly impossible, and each capture thus becomes a coordinated effort, since the flow of the map doesn't favor a very fast or trickjumping-oriented offender, in any way.

- the map is symmetric, which is not a bad thing generally, but it lacks a decent high route; most ctf maps nowadays rely on at least one efficient low and one efficient high route (try to balance it, dont make one route more favorable than another - also think of team mates calling out flag runner routes, i.e. "flag exiting high", you want to make communication like that possible on your map

I agree, I'm considering working this in using the perch above mega.

- you dont want to give either attackers or def an advantage, attackers should be able to collect some low amount of armor in order to do a good attack and the flag def should also have some hp and armor to work with in order to actually defend, however you don't want your def to be too stacked because that will make attacking impossible

Indeed, I do! I want them to have vastly asymmetrical advantages, like what you've listed.

- how attackable or defendable a map is also depends a lot on geometry and weapon placement (i.e. your flag def has a height advantage and can easily catch people off the jumppads, also he has most weapons in close range making it very easy to defend)

My hope is that the quads will end such an advantage quickly and frequently, and hurl the game into something chaotic.

What I suggest:
Rethink your concept, have a clear idea about what kind of map you want to accomplish. Smaller isn't always better or faster in ctf but larger isn't either, it is about having the right balance between geometry, weapons, armors and routes. Extend your current map; add a perimeter area, connect your side hallways to the mid somehow, break those lines of sight, rework the base with the jumppads and the map will become a lot more playable. Hope it helps, keep going!

Thanks

Here's a screenshot of my map not looking so ugly.

[pikaluva13]

Here's a screenshot of my map not looking so ugly.

Ah, I figured those were placeholders :P
Texture-wise, that looks a LOT better. It could still use improvements obviously, but that comes with experience (That I don't have ;p).

" My hope is that the quads will end such an advantage quickly and frequently, and hurl the game into something chaotic."
The odds are that a team in control will stay in control and will get all of the powerups, thereby making it a lot easier of a game for them.

[MexicanPadre]

Heh, this map makes me wanna put my first ever CTF map.