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Thread: One more time about shuffle

  1. #11
    Senior Member FlashSoul will become famous soon enough FlashSoul will become famous soon enough FlashSoul's Avatar
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    TSEliot : Depending on the player configuration, the shuffle algorithm can very well ALWAYS return a complete team switch or "No players shuffled". Automatically re-shuffling in that case would create an unpleasant infinite loop. If you ant the teams to be shuffled rather than balanced, choose the random implementation of shuffle.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxo_ View Post
    u dont need tier system for shuffle, u dont need elo ratings, u just need damage given per game for ca/tdm mode
    Would face the same problems as QL's system or QLRank's Elo: you can inflate your rating by playing against noobs, or deflate by playing pickups / pcws.

    Comparison between two of us: I have a lot lower PR (less than 200 vs your 500+), a lot lower damage per game (6476 vs your 8185) and yet when we actually meet, it's not that obvious that you're so much better damage-wise.

    You can argue that it's a one-time lucky game and I won't protest :) It's just an example that any statistic that you can imagine (like accuracy, damage done, frag net) is more influenced by the skill of your opponents than your own skill... This is why Elo system is only based on wins/losses and enemy rating and not any other statistic.

    I think QLRanks would do good if it counted in quits correctly. Right now it's just broken and QL's rating is doing better job, even if simple.

    Shuffle produces pretty close games with what it gets, only manual switches (including quits) and big skill gaps can fool it.

  3. #13
    Member oxo_ is on a distinguished road
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    I agree with you Lam
    The best shuffle system would be to take all of this stats (acc,dd,dt,frags etc) but its take to much works for stuff in id i guess, so i think that damage delivered is most fairest and most easily thing to implement in some patch.
    And u right for tier slumer(more) and pickup/pcw(less) too, but these things are minor and can not be avoided in quake.

  4. #14
    Junior Member Q_Adrian is on a distinguished road
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    Tier 2 / 3 why join in hight tier?...meybe for tier 2/3 is fun , but no for all...and you when progres...same too not like when tier 2/3 join in your team...and this game...is for performance...ok?...for fun is other games...not cry more...<

  5. #15
    *an00bis86
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    @Yoko:

    It may not be your first account, but QuakeLive doesn't know that. To it, you're just like any other player who just signed up. You get slotted in the default starting tier until you've completed the required number of matches to be placed in the tier computed by their rating algorithm.

    It's not the fault of shuffle that players quit mid-game, nor that players choose to block votes either. Currently, only Sampler servers, to my knowledge, force a shuffle every game -- when it was suggested this be expanded to all servers, the community on the forums seemed quite opposed to that. As Lam pointed out, anyone's rating can be artificially inflated or deflated, which will break the algorithm -- there is no foolproof method here, as I alluded to in an earlier post, as there is no way to get perfect knowledge of a player's ability. Adding more variables might refine the rating further, but they could also just as easily be manipulated too.

    @TSEliot:

    If you're wanting a shuffle for the sake of randomizing the teams, look into the "random shuffle" option. Sponge added this awhile back for people like you.

  6. #16
    Senior Member TSEliot is on a distinguished road TSEliot's Avatar
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    I am well aware of the random shuffle, have pro...use random

    the problem is still that if you have called shuffle, presumably you are not satisfied with the current state of things, but the shuffle(yes the skill based shuffle) does not change anything.

    What you want it to do is switch some players around while still being balanced within the parameters of the shuffle alg

    something like, if shuffle is bad(no players switch||red goes to blue) then switch the two players that have the closest skill(and are on opp teams)

    I firmly believe that a no players shuffled/red->blue shuffle is unacceptable, the users have requested a shuffle, they do not receive a shuffle, this should be corrected

    (also I believe I have experienced this with random shuffle as well)

  7. #17
    Senior Member FlashSoul will become famous soon enough FlashSoul will become famous soon enough FlashSoul's Avatar
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    I guess it's all a matter of semantics, then. Before the random shuffle, it had always meant "balance" rather than "shuffle". Maybe we should actually have the two callvote options, shuffle being the random one.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam has a spectacular aura about Lam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxo_ View Post
    The best shuffle system would be to take all of this stats (acc,dd,dt,frags etc)
    Again: ALL of those stats depend on enemy skill. And picking your opponents (including tier slumming) is not a minor thing, because that's the big reason why some players are over-rated in the _current_ system.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSEliot View Post
    the problem is still that if you have called shuffle, presumably you are not satisfied with the current state of things, but the shuffle(yes the skill based shuffle) does not change anything.
    That's because it knows better how to balance teams.

    From my experience, 9 out of 10 reshuffles are called because someone wants to be on one team with some player they think can carry them to win.

    But then if we ask them "whom to switch to make it better?" and apply the suggestion, the game is a blowout. Bigger than a shuffled game would have been.

    You see, people have a problem similar to stat-based system - they assume that just because someone demolished a noob server on their eyes, he has to be the best player around. No way some unknown name (to them) on their team can actually be a better player! ;)

    I'm not saying that there are no under/overrated players. They exist and I've already mentioned why. But allowing them to play in shuffled games will re-rate everyone properly and balance the system. As Cat said, shuffled games are supposed to bring everyone close to 50% win ratio and it does.

    The rest is just quitters and/or shuffling 3v4. Practically every time someone says "good shuffle" ironically after a blowout game, the teams were changed after that shuffle. Then it's really not shuffle's fault.

  9. #19
    Member Yoko is on a distinguished road Yoko's Avatar
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    @an00bis86

    sorry, misunderstood your first message. But since i've registered account i've played ~2-3 matches and here we are, Tier 4. So i can't play with tiers 1/2/3, except unrestricted matches. And it's okay.
    But not okay is when you playing VS stronger team and finally get 10:0 score (or 10:1) cuz teams are not balanced and on the first two positions you can see guys with personal scores like 12/1, 17/5, 22/8 etc etc. It means that in opposite team 1/2/3 players are not so skilled for that kind of enemies and they got scores like 0/10, 5/13, 9/16 etc. So first one or two players in the weaker team must take all the enemies themselves, playing x2/3 harder, faster, smarter etc. And in the end of that, when you got final score like 10:0 this is minus moral and often you don't want to continue playing on this server or with this team (often stronger team didn't want to shuffle players on second map, guess why?).

    What you want it to do is switch some players around while still being balanced within the parameters of the shuffle alg
    Yesss, that's what i'm talking about.

    Situations when 'shuffle system' just changing team color (red <-> blue) or answering 'No players bla-bla-bla' is a waste of time, especially when half of players have pressed [F3] button.

    You see, people have a problem similar to stat-based system - they assume that just because someone demolished a noob server on their eyes, he has to be the best player around. No way some unknown name (to them) on their team can actually be a better player!
    He-he-he Rightly said, and it happens too often.
    Last edited by Yoko; 09-25-2012 at 04:02 AM.
    I know that your back is your one big blind spot.

  10. #20
    Senior Member danstar will become famous soon enough danstar will become famous soon enough danstar's Avatar
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    people expect everything to be balanced just cus some rating says so - many are not up to par with it and race to the forums.

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